A few months ago Jen Steiner, Founder of
Feminist Create interviewed me, Grace Denton (you can listen to that interview here). My immediate thought on finishing the interview was that I wanted to know
what Jen had to say about a lot of the questions, and what prompted her to
start the project.
We decided that a good way of conducting the
interview to fit around the hectic nature of our lives and bodies, would be to
text the questions and answers to each other via what's app. This proved a good
way of doing it, it felt like a conversation, but one where you could take
longer thinking gaps and put off thinking of an answer or a question for a
little while if you were scared!
The following interview took place over the
course of a few weeks, and as I'm writing this introduction I am sending it
back to Jen with a new question at the end so she can finish it off before
posting it on the blog...
Grace:
Hello Jen! Welcome to our interview. So one of the things you've been doing a
lot recently is writing, specifically about music and Bristol and the DIY
community. How's this going? What inspired your interest in it? And can you
give me a brief intro to
DIY Voices?
Jen:
Hello Grace Denton! Weeeeell first of all, I love writing... The main writing I
did as a young person was letter writing and stories, then over my 20's it was
songwriting and a daily diary; I never considered that my writing or ideas
could be interesting to other people who didn't know me.... I used to read
mainstream music magazines but they were usually about blokes and I didn't find
anything of my self in them.. Since I moved to Bristol 3 years ago I was
impressed (as in an impression was made on me) and inspired by the local music
and DIY culture and scene. I saw people creating and getting it out into the
world by any means.. I decided to risk approaching a local music magazine with
an idea for a monthly feature on Women In Music and the editor was really
excited about it, this is where my music writing first got published.
Now I also review EP's, albums and live gigs for
Drunken Werewolf. It's pretty fun
(after initially being terrifying ) thing to do, I started thinking about how
to be able to do it more, but in a more local, indie focused arena. Music is
great but the music industry isn't all that great especially for women, what I love about DIY and
independent ventures is the way creativity and relationships are central, not
profit and image.
DIY VOICES is an attempt to write and get other
writers; local and worldwide; to talk about the gigs they're seeing or
playing, zines they love, events or talks they've found inspiring- and the blog
is platform for that to occur. It's a great idea, somehow getting other people
inspired to share their own writing is seemingly quite hard. Time to put my
thinking cap on.
Grace: Amazing! So how have your experiences of the Bristol DIY scene affected
how you present/distribute your own music over the last few years?
Jen: Well, probably the first thing to say about my own music is that I'm a
disabled musician who is regularly unable to play as my health dictates when
and where. Late nights (most music events) are not usually a reality for me,
and so that thing I was saying about the DIY power being in relationships,
hasn't been that easy for me as I'm not out and about whenever I want. The ways
I've been able to present and distribute my own music have been DIY to the
extreme of.. Solo functioning... So far, that is. I'd like for it to change.
I'd like to be more immersed in my local scene
as a musician, especially in terms of distribution and gigging... Funding a
release without support of even a small label or venue is difficult to say the
least. Fortunately this year I've been able to gig out more regularly, at least
once a month (which is relatively a lot for me) and I think I'm building up
more relationships locally as a musician. I suppose the biggest influence my
local DIY scene has shown me is that it is theoretically possible to be an
independent musician, I don't feel like I've worked out how to do it my self
quite yet!
Grace: Can you tell me about your writing process? I know you often work with
traditional tunes and interpret them in your own way. How do you approach
songwriting and composition in general and in relation to these tunes that
inspire you?
Jen: Weeeeeell... I come to songwriting in several different ways... One is
with my guitar; if I have the necessary solitary time and inclination to sit
down with my guitar, I'll play a little something and invariably if I open my
mouth, part of a song comes out... All it takes then is a bit more belief in my
self to keep singing (not always easy) and, if I remember, take a digital
recording of it. Sometimes songs are so catchy it seems unbelievable that I
won't remember them, but I do forget! Others are just imprinted immediately and
never leave.
Another way I write is just hearing or seeing a
phrase, or thinking of one, and kind of holding onto to it until it becomes an
internal song... A few weeks ago I finally wrote the song 'Song Of Stone' and
I've literally had the main part of that for 7 or 8 years... Just waiting... It
was cool to finally find its place!
Another way I write songs is just randomly
singing whatever's in my head or something that I'm doing, these are usually
short and silly.
Sometimes I use old songs or stories to make new
versions... I'm quite into nursery rhymes; I find bits of them quite disturbing
and they're usually so deeply ingrained that playing with them, or changing
elements, is pretty damn satisfying!
I'm really into repetition, simplicity, stories
and last, but not at all least, using my voice as an instrument in such a way
that any song I sing, I make it mine. My voice is the core element in my life,
something I've always had and used, in some way or other, to give me life. That
sounds a bit dramatic! But I think there's some connection between our voice
and our spirit, literally the inhalation and exhalation of living. I feel very
alive when I am singing.
This past year I've been using a loop pedal to
play with both guitar and voice; one of the nicest things about it (apart from
it being super cool fucking fun) has been making songs or sound pieces
(whatever you call them) using only my voice... Wow...
Grace: Nice. Yeah I get a sense when watching you perform that you're really
happy when performing and using you voice, specifically. You say you've used
your voice your whole life, but when did you first perform and sing for others?
Jen: Ha ha! Yeah, I love it! I first started singing along to tapes my
parents had in their cars, lots of Fleetwood Mac, Whitney Houston, Meatloaf,
wow all that good shit! We travelled a lot between my parents houses, so the
first person I sang with really was my older sister. I loved singing with her.
We made a recording with some of our friends when we were young teenagers of
"Lean On Me". before that I'd never considered whether my voice was
good or whatever, but when we listened back it was like, woah.... That's a
great voice! We also went to church every week (not exactly what i wanted to do
but no choice at the time) and that's the first place I sang in front of other
people; it wasn't exactly performing cos it's ... Well, it's not a gig, but it
was definitely singing for other people!
Since then I've always sung alone actually,
singing with my sister was my favourite- I always sang the melody and she sang
the (harder) harmony but one day I suddenly understood how to sing harmony and
that was really cool. Singing solo is somewhat awesome but singing with other
people is really what I love to do..
Grace: That puts the loop pedal in context, singing with others but
maintaining control.. The dream!
Jen: It's not really about control as such, more like I've never been asked
or asked to sing with anyone else... That's not true when I was art school, I
sang with a couple of people; my dream of being a country singer and singing
Joleen was fulfilled! Also I sang with another friend of mine which was heaven
but... I guess art school is a bubble full of people who want to sing with each
other...
Since then, well isolation can be a pretty key
in disabled people's lives, as it can in everyone's, but if a person is limited
with times they can be around other people and most other people work at jobs
during the day... then it takes a lot to push out of that set up... The loop
pedal is a compromise rather than a dream
Grace: It's in a way quite appropriate that we're in conversation here because
it often feels we approach things very differently through necessity or because
of our own circumstances. It's very easy to see the world through your own lens
so it's good and important to me to hear you discuss your disability so openly.
I often wish I could give you some of my energy, and because of my addiction to
being busy/inability to say no to things that excite me (although I'm trying to
get better!) I find myself craving the solitude you talk about.
In your room I noticed a long list hanging from
the door of things to do like take a nap, write a song, Google your friends. I
really identified with the need for this list and I imagine it’s there to
help/remind you to use the time you have at home in a way that pleases you. What
other methods have you found to inspire your creativity or keep you focused?
Jen: Hmmm.. Well, the list IS a reminder; I suppose, more of a reminder to
be there in the moment... Things to do when you've forgotten who you are! Some
of the things on the list are creative, some are silly and fun, some are just
to remember that other people exist!
I think I'm generally an inspired person; given
the space, sometimes solitude and lack of physical pain; I can produce to my
hearts content!
I do find it can be a cyclical thing though,
creative energy seems to rise and fall with my hormones...
And reading is always a massive creative
inspiration for me too...
Grace: Cool. What are you reading at the minute?
Jen: It's funny I said that cos Actually right at the moment I'm not reading
anything! This never happens, I usually have a pile of books I'm dipping in and
out of.. But I've really been getting into audio books; very recently listening
to fan-read Harry Potter (am almost at the end of Deathly Hallows) and before
that I was listening to Dune, Orlando, something by David Sederis, an
autobiography of Dorethea Lange and anything I could lay my hands on (ears to)
read by Jeanette Winterson! Actually, I noticed recently that even the sound of
Jeanette's voice inspires me! I went to live up North when I was 8 until 18 and
lived in the corner of East Lancashire that Winterson is from. I was still
learning to write when I was 8 and for some reason just the sound of that
accent/dialect sends out these creative sparky feelings in my brain... It's
like I suddenly can remember part of my self :)
But still listening isn't quite the same as
reading... But you can do it with your eyes closed or in the dark!
Grace: Ah yeah I love audio books! Not listened to one in ages. Always like
the fact you can do other stuff like tidy up or knit while they're playing.
So how does being a feminist affect your
creative life? You've done a lot of work showcasing creative feminists through
FeministCreate so I imagine it's something that is quite central to your self
and your creative output...
Jen: Well... The effects of sexism and internalised sexism have and continue
to in some areas, kept me quiet and ashamed in many parts of my life... Let
alone all the other "ism"s.. I never felt like I wasn’t a feminist
but I started to get more of a perspective of what that means to me in my life
and how I can see that affects in other people's lives too.
One massive area, in terms of creativity,
feminism and also activism, is isolation. Part of the way the world is divided
up into production and consumption has to do with sexism and domination; I
wanted to start to combat that isolation and one of the ways I was able to was
to offer up the platform of Feminist Create as a space for us to be central, to
be loud and connected as creative people who believe in, and act towards, the
idea that all people are equal and deserve to be seen and heard, regardless of
gender.
That concept is central to my life, so whether
the work I produce is actively showing that or not, that's where I'm coming
from and heading towards.
Grace: So when did you become aware of the idea of feminism? In relation to
when you became aware of the reality of sexism?
Jen: Hmmm well feminism was in my life early on in a way, but not necessarily
what I might call feminism today... I think I had an idea that feminists were
just strong women, not all women were strong women so not everyone was
feminist... It seems funny to remember what I thought! I mean, this was when I
was a child. When I was a teenager feminism was not in my life, although sexism
was I wouldn't have not what to call it until my mid 20's really... I called my
self a feminist by then but more in a
I-feel-outraged-by-something-I-cant-explain, than in any thought out, theory
based way. That only happened about 4 or 5 years ago...
Grace: Yeah I know what you mean. It's only recently that I've realised some
of the blindingly obvious hypocrisies in our society that stem from engrained
sexist thoughts and behaviours. Can you tell me more, if you feel comfortable,
about some of the ways and the areas in which sexism made you feel you had to
be quiet and ashamed? And how have you overcome that?
Well that's a big question... But it's just hard
to answer anyway cos some of the ways sexism is normalised just makes me not
quite be able to tell if I'm making stuff up!
One thing is just how differently boy babies and
girl babies are treated... From Day One! Girls are praised and cuddled for
being cute, for being precious, for being beautiful... Even if their behaviour
is no different, the kind of praise boys get is for being strong, for being a
lad, for being 'naughty' even. From day one that is usually the set up and it's
unusual for those messages not to get stuck in our heads so we can pass it on
to babies we're around too...
And what's the difference? A willy. That's all.
It seems outrageous that one piece of a persons body could give others around
them, and eventually they would internalise, the message that if you've got a
willy you're important and worth listening to. If you haven't, then you're just
not that important, (although beautiful and precious) and you should listen to
and be guided by those important people who have got one.... Totally weird. Please!
What a load of bullshit. But deeply ingrained bullshit.
( I haven't answered your question
VERY personally as I guess it feels too hard, I'm talking in a generalised way
about sexism and internalised sexism here,)
One way I've worked out how to overcome that
message? Well, I haven't fully overcome it and even when I notice its presence
in a relationship or conversation; it's hard to interrupt it in a way that
people can really hear (cos of course we all feel defensive). The best thing
I've learnt (or re learnt) is crying. Not right then in the middle of a weird
sexist situation but.. Crying, shouting, getting angry... In a formal way
I mean, not just generally but specifically, deciding to listen to another
person’s stories, really listen and let the other person express what they need
to, then in return they listen to you and your story. I do this in some of my
friendships and also in a setting called Re-Evaluation Co-counselling or RC.
It's a long winded way of saying co-listening. The deal is You listen to me
without interruption and then I listen to you. It's a really simple but very
effective tool and I've found that my life and my relationships go much better
when I can really listen to another person. The idea is you can talk or session on anything that you want to. Unsuprisingly, there's a big Women's Liberation movement in RC and also a big community of men dedicated to working on their sexism. It's quite a hopeful idea!
Grace:
Thank you so much for answering these questions as
openly as you have done. Putting
ourselves out there in this way can feel very intimidating. Even just in the
few weeks we’ve been conducting this interview there have been controversies
over the way women like Miley Cyrus ‘use’ their bodies, and the way women like
Lily Allen and Caitlin Moran popularise the idea of feminism without explicitly
taking class and race into account. It can sometimes feel like putting your
version of events out into the world is a risky thing, you can face criticism
and abuse that seems to far outweigh the perceived wrongs. How do you feel,
this far into running FeministCreate, about being a visible part of feminism (specifically
online)? And finally, how do you feel reading this interview back before
posting it on the blog?
Jen: I think some of the messages I have in my mind is that nothing I do is very important or visible and that includes a lot of my creative work and this blog. I find it very difficult to notice that this might REALLY MATTER. I guess it's helpful to remember that people all over the world have been reading this blog since I began. It's hard to believe that I can be fully welcomed as the whole of my different identities and I'm quite quiet about those identities. One way I'd like to start working is in a more face to face way, the internet is great but it's not a reason to stay isolated behind our screens. I've got some ideas about this so watch this space..
Re-reading this interview before posting it has been excrutiating and also exciting, the feeling is I've said too much !!?? I am quite nervous to publish it... But, here goes...
By the way, here is my online stuff:
Twitter/thejensteiner
Facebook/thejensteiner
Soundcloud/thejensteiner
Bandcamp/thejensteiner
